Monday, February 07, 2005

adam and eve - what choice did they have?

in theory, the first month of any semester is the best time to go out with friends, have a few drinks after class, and come in a bit hungover. everyone knows that things are just going to get a lot tougher once exams roll around and we have to start outlining and all that fun stuff.

unfortunately, this semester has pretty much sucked ass from day one. i don't know what it is about this brief we're working on for legal writing, but it's pretty much sucking all of the fun out of what should be a fairly laid-back part of the semester.

my bibliography for the brief is due tomorrow, and it's total doo-doo. i only have four halfway-decent sources (none of which i've actually read), and i've totally forgotten how to do the correct citation form. do i do the whole string cite? or just the short cite? and what order should they be listed in? alphabetically? chronologically? geographically? autobiographically? (thank you nick hornby for that one.) plus, i don't think it's really called a bibliography, but i wrote "BIBLIOGRAPHY" on the top of the page anyway, since i did all of my reasearch at the biblioteca.

damn, law school is a drag.

not to mention the fact that there's this little class called civil procedure that i've hardly even thought about for two weeks. the return of dean gora tomorrow just adds a whole new layer of stress and drama to this 1L roller coaster.

so anyhow, on a more positive note, con law was once again really interesting today.

hellerstein had some great one-liners (such as the one that inspired the title of today's blog), and even took us on a trip down memory lane, back to the days when "you'd go driving up to the cloisters" where the girls and boys would "make a decision." just the thought of him in the back seat of the car (wearing the "husky" bar mitzvah suit?) with some girl (the schechter poultry chicken plucker's daughter?) was enough to bring a smile to my face.

however, class really started getting hot during the last fifteen minutes or so, when the conversation turned from abortion to gay marriage. the exchange between professor hellerstein and ms. heuser was certainly one to remember.

my two cents on the whole thing?

kristina did a great job of articulating her position, sticking to her guns, and so on. i think i would have been a lot more flustered than she was, especially considering that hella was asking her pretty much one question after another for ten straight minutes, and they were hard questions being delivered at a fairly rapid-fire pace. you've got to respect someone who has the cojones to verbalize some of those arguments, especially when the majority of the class is clucking and groaning all around you.

i was particularly impressed, however, as i watched hellerstein do his thing up there. i can picutre him now, leaning in as he asked the questions, one fist propped up on his back hip, the other on the lecturn, his quick mind always ready with the next question before the previous one had even been answered, clearly enjoying the moment.

i mean, it was very much like witnessing a really well-executed cross examination. especially fascinating was how hella kept on incorporating the same questions in different ways, each time eliciting an increasingly candid response from ms. heuser.

in the beginning, she maintained that it was "offensive to human nature." a few minutes later, it was "repugnant to natural law." and by the end of the class, hellerstein had her saying that such a lifestyle was "morally bankrupt."

anyhow, it was easily one of h-bomb's best performances, and for once i can say that i'm actually looking forward to doing the reading for wednesday's class.

see y'all with the dozer tomorrow morning.

-menlove

Example

39 Comments:

At 10:14 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"even if judeo-christian values say man and woman - whatever happened to separation of church and state?"

Seperation of Church and State is an idea, not a constituional provision. Strike one. Try again, friend.

 
At 10:54 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Actually, the Supreme Court interprets the First Amendment's Establishment Clause as prohibiting governmental practices that can be interpreted by a reasonable person with knowledge of the situation as endorsing a religion (See Lemon v. Kurtzman, Lynch v. Donnelly, County of Allegheny v. ACLU). This includes favoring any religion over non-religion. So, before you start making snotty statements like, "Strike One," perhaps you should familiarize yourself a little more with constitutional jurisprudence (or, at the very least, ask Section 7 what their friggin' appellate brief is about).

Right, further, on the subject of gay marriage, the dissent's fears in Lawrence v. Texas are being justified--our new favorite judge in New York handed down that opinion saying that interpretations fomented by the Court itself are bringing about the inevitable, however "disgusted" you are by the private activities of two consensual adults or their ability to 1) get tax breaks, 2) have hospital visitation rights, and 3) inherit one another's proprty.

I think what bothers me most about some of the people we're in school with is the way that somehow 17 or so weeks of legal education makes them think they've developed into experts. Kids, lay off--we're none of us no one. I'm not saying I get it, either. I'm done.

 
At 11:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Regarding everyone's crack calculations: you don't pay gram prices for pounds. You get a HUGE discount buying in bulk. Haven't you ever been to CostCo? That's the whole reason everybody's slingin' rock is because you can turn $10,000 of powder into $280,000. So I guess it comes down to whether you're calculating street value (like the DA does when he charges you), or you're looking to buy (like the class hypo).

And another thing... there is no such thing as 'pure crack.' Crack is cocaine cut with baking powder and other adulterants and solidified, making it easier to smoke. Crack is just a short cut to freebasing coke.

And for all the lastest on the crack lifestyle, check out the latest on Crack Aficionado, like how to turn your 'crack house' into a 'crack home.'

 
At 11:06 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Can I marry my younger (yet adult) sister?
If not, why not?
We love each other, and we are consenting adults.
What about livestock, can I marry livestock?
you mean we draw lines with morality?
Wow, you would think that radical secularism would have irradicated that sort of thougt crime by now.
I hear the footsteps of the ACLU...I mean thought police on my stairs right now.

 
At 11:06 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I agree with the assessment of Hella cross-examining the student in class today. It reminded me of that old TV series when Matlock would bamboozle the witness into admitting that they were a racist.

Whether or not her arguments were grounded in the Constitution, I was pretty shocked by how flippant many of Heuser's comments were. It's not easy to be both callous and callow at the same time, but she pulled it off.

(Menlove, I hope it's not too harsh to call someone callous or callow... certainly it's not as bad as "eat shit, liberal turds"... but I'll understand if you must delete. It's just that I have trouble believing that my younger brother, who came out of the closet at age 14, is in anyway "unnatural," "repugnant," or "morally bankrupt," and I detest the sort of thinking that implies that he has somehow "chosen" an alternative "lifestyle," and is thereby less worthy of God's love, community acceptance, or protection of the law.)

 
At 11:10 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Amen to that!

 
At 11:10 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'd like to second the props for the Focus on the Family representative in the front row today. Sure, her beliefs might be repugnant, but she had to know how they'd be received, and she stuck to her guns.

If some of the other strict textualists in class were a bit more honest, they'd admit to the same set of beliefs; you can cloak that wolf in more acceptable rhetoric, but it ain't sheep.

 
At 11:19 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

1) state has viable interest in keeping you from marrying your sister.
a) serious power differentials exist in the real manifestations of this situation (see, abuse, familial), which, also, generally arises in the context of severe poverty and socioeconomic isolation.
b) reproduction between siblings results in significantly higher rates of mental and physical deformity.

2) livestock--really? is that even a valid argument? if you're actually going to try to counter an argument about consenting adults engaging in intimate behavior with a hypothetical in which you have the mental capacity to engage in long-term intimacy with a farm animal, i think it reflects more on your brainpower than where i stick my d*ck or on whose finger i put my ring

3) it's "eradicated," not "irradicated"

4) ACLU as thought police seems a laughable assertion--would you not agree that limiting my ability to participate in the social, political and economic spheres by barring me from marrying, and insisting that such behavior is "morally bankrupt" or somehow threatening to heterosexuals insecure in their positions of hegemony is more intrusive than the ACLU's ultimate argument that it is the government's role to stay they hell out of the way of my civil liberties (and yours)? really; believe what you want, just stop limiting the way others can express their monogamous, intimate relationships based purely on your moral outrage or disbelief that THEIR right to marry isn't protected (much less allowed) while YOURS is.

 
At 11:21 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

i googled kristina heuser (like i do with all of you too) and found these two links:

a letter she wrote to the student newspaper at georgetown: http://www.thehoya.com/editorials/012301/edit5.htm

something else she wrote for one of g'town's journals: http://www.georgetownacademy.com/articles/XII/XII_3_10-11.htm

 
At 11:23 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 11:46 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Let's not cloak anything. I've never spoken to Kristina, but her opinions are nothing less than bigoted. Once upon a time, it wasn't considered so unusual to say that African Americans should be kept out of "white" schools. Back in the day, it wasn't considered so unusual to say that there should be quotas on the numbers of Jews allowed to enlist in Ivy League schools. Today, it isn't considered so repugnant to keep homosexuals out of the military, or even to say that they are a moral insult to our society. There's no moral difference. And the ACLU as thought police? Actually, the ACLU is leading the fight to overturn a law saying that the government should be able to monitor the books you read. Quite the opposite, my friend, of the "thought police." Don't give props to Kristina. She's your usual, run-of-the-mill homophobe.

 
At 11:56 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

bargee, posting the links to her letters does not equal character assassination. i made no value judgments about their content or quality. if you read them, you will see that they are articulate, thoughtful, and passionate. the mean-spirited post which appeared after mine (which i believe menlove has since deleted) was written by someone else, not me.

by the way, bargee, i know who you are, and i think you've got a cute little tushy.

 
At 12:01 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

You know friends, I have to say something. I came home utterly exhausted from goddman tables of authorities, westlaw print jobs, and contracts reading. All I wanted to do was smoke a J, watch the Daily Show, read some Menlove, and make love to my new (go me) girlfriend. Now I'm all disturbed and shit. My high is dead, my girlfriend asleep and my stomach churning. You people are so concerned with showing your "tolerant stripes" that you think nothing of publically humiliating a classmate? I don't give a damn how intolerant she is. How dare you anonymoulsy rip someone, diparage her, rouse the mob against her- we see her every day!? I am so ashamed that I probably know and hang out with you "tolerant" folk. Ah, man this whole night has just gone to shit!

 
At 12:09 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Smoking marijuana is illegal.

 
At 12:12 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I could care less. F-ck the govt! Long live weed!

 
At 1:04 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Nothing like busting out the Blue Book for the first time this semester at 1 AM. I sure do love law school!!

 
At 1:16 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Bluebook can lick my Blueballs

 
At 2:03 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey folks, just wanted to say hi. Logged on here for first time tonight (it's 2:00 am) and love the energy on this board. You are all just postively psychotic, yeah baby! Just love it. Ok, I got kicked out of my bedroom (she actually locked the door, crazy-ass woman!) so I'll be cozying up in the heatless-living room on the couch with little more than a thin blanket...see ya'll tomorrow you crazy BLS'rs!

 
At 9:21 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

uh, then don't post it on the internet.

it's not lame--do you really think there's a reasonable expectatin of privacy for content that 1) appears in print in a physical newspaper and 2) is online?

really?

 
At 10:43 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Adam...i applaud your ability to speak openly about your beliefs and not hide your identity (i wish i could say the same for myself), but i'm not sure i entirely agree with your idea of this separation of morals and laws. once upon a time, the laws of this country were created to somewhat mirror the morals of society. it doesn't always match up perfectly, but the idea of having laws which are morally sound is really not all that crazy. and as morals change, laws change. what if we just sat around and said, "sure, it's morally reprehensible to make blacks and whites drink out of different water fountains, but that's the law." why don't we just flush the morals down the toilet?

as law students, i think it is perfectly legitimate for us to question the morality behind the laws. why do you think we read cases from 1832 in torts about some dope and his rick of hay? as future lawyers, we need to understand where these laws come from. but we also need to understand how and when these laws should be changed. i, for one, am disappointed by the fact that some laws violate my morals, but that is one of the reasons that i am in law school. i would like to make a difference. perhaps you just want to make a buck and live in an insulated world where the laws and society's morals are unrelated...

 
At 11:13 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

just a little light reading on topic

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-egg05.html

 
At 2:43 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

From someone who does drugs;
Crack comes from cocaine, NOT the other way around- so there is never "pure crack"...it is coke and baking soda which is cooked and strained. There is "pure cocaine" before it is cut w/ inositol or other cutting agents.
People generally buy crack in 5 or 10 dollar bags in the street..Not in vials circa 1987 after school specials. When the cops tell the media how much a drug is worth they can be talking about how much it "could" be worth when it's done branching out into those little bags- crackheads do not shop at costco.

 
At 6:18 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The problem in our constituional law class is that many of the educated liberals in our class are arguing that judges should interpret rights declared in the Constition from a secular humanist perspective. This is simply not the case. Both the Declaration of Independence, "When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness . . . That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed," and the Constitution of USA which I need not quote here spell out the underlying moral foundation which is meant to guide this country and its people. To say that the relativist notions of morality, which declare that the government should impose the views of the minority on the majority, should be offensive to our sense of liberty. Homosexuals should have no more right to impose their view of morality on society than society does on them. If Homosexuals wish to receive the civil rights and benefits given to heterosexuals due to marriage, then they should call for civil unions, and attempt to achieve parity through legislation or other legal means under the guise of Equal Protection. Marriage as is it evolved and was defined by tradition, language, morality, and family is and always has been between a man and a woman. The religious views of morality are but a reflection of society and its development over thousands of years. To overturn that using judicial fiat is a travesty that would have the founders rolling in their graves.

 
At 6:48 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

People have a right to be tolerated, if they are not harming others. No one has a right to approval, which is exactly what marriage is about (except for the third party benefits, designed to support childbearing). This has always been the problem with the homosexual activists. They are not content with tolerance. They want approval, pushing an agenda of approval even in public elementary schools. This is why homosexual marriage is likely to be a losing issue forever. Tolerance has been granted. Approval is a whole other story. There is no fundamental reason it should ever be granted, and with homosexual activists being constantly obnoxious, demanding what is not a right, approval is unlikely to be forthcoming in the foreseeabl

 
At 7:13 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Captain: "What we've got here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach, so you get what we had here last week which is the way he wants it. Well, he gets it. And I don't like it any more than you men."

 
At 7:38 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Note to Anonymous 6:48 PM:

Gay marriage is "likely to be a losing issue forever"? Check out the polls of people under 40: gay marriage is an inevitability. Once the old and the scared shuffle off the power coil, the game is over.

So shove your bible (quite legally: see Lawrence) up your ass. How's that for "obnoxious"?

 
At 7:47 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Incidentally, "God" is not mentioned ONCE in the Constitution. "God" is mentioned twice in the Declaration of Independence. Once quoted above ; once in the context of protecting all rights with which the Creator has endowed men. "God" appears twice in the Federalist Papers, both times by Madison, both times in the "God only knows" sense. "In God We Trust" was added to money AFTER the Civil War. "Under God" was inserted into the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954. The United States is not a Christian country, and any argument that supports governmental policies with religious rhetoric violates the strict intentions of the Framers.

Everyone have a a right: not to be tolerated, but to exist as a full citizen with equal rights. Currently, the rights of gay men and lesbians are curtailed because of heterosexuals' fears that allowing gays into their club will somehow damage their ways of being, an argument I do not understand. Marriage, if it is intended to solidify relationships which the state views as a bedrock to society, should have no religious aspect. If one chooses to engage in a religious ceremony, that is one's choice, but the state should confer no additional rights by one's participation in a ceremony that is, as often as not, a lie and a failure.

Furthermore, marriage originally evolved as a convenient way for the aristocracy to insure their land and wealth was kept in a setting of which they approved--not any other crap. AND, it's a medieval invention, not some fundamental building block to civilization.

And, homosexual activists are not "obnoxious." Homosexual activists are not "in elementary schools" for Christ's sake. Warmongering racist neocolonialists are obnoxious. Abortion protestors, crying insults and slurs at women engaging in what has been ruled a fundamental right is obnoxious. We're educated adults (purportedly), and it completely eludes me how the right of two men to marry one another in any way degrades you, threatens you, or harms you. The only interest served by preventing gays from marrying is the most banal of them all: the Status Quo.

 
At 7:51 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

James Madison on fifteen centuries of Christianity: "What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution."

 
At 8:19 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Great, pulling a single quote from the mouth of a Founding Father to showcase your general bigotry and distaste for religion, Christianity in particular. Here's a quote from another founding father, “God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” (excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital) [Source: Merrill . D. Peterson, ed., Jefferson Writings, (New York: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), Vol. IV, p. 289. From Jefferson’s Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, 1781.]

But is it really necessary to trade quotes back and forth? What are the real divisions here? Could it be the comment above that, "and it completely eludes me how the right of two men to marry one another in any way degrades you, threatens you, or harms you. The only interest served by preventing gays from marrying is the most banal of them all: the Status Quo." This absolute ignorance of the position from the other side showcases the condescending attitude and relativist morality which does nothing to further neither liberty nor equality. The "Status Quo" is not a banal reason when it's underpinings are just and moral.

 
At 8:23 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Here's to you James Madison, the paragon of consistency, or could it be that his quotes are being used out of context.

“ We’ve staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart.” James Madison

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia] James Madison

 
At 8:24 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"If god is love and love is blind is ray charles god"?

 
At 8:41 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

yes

 
At 8:42 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

uhh, that's god speaking.

 
At 9:46 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ah, Lawrence v. Texas, not saying that there is anything wrong with that.... but if it were two women instead this case would be an absolute joy to decipher

 
At 11:04 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Note: There is a difference between belief in a god and belief in Christianity. Most of the framers weren't Christians, weren't in fact, particularly religious. They were deists who recognized the danger of state-sanctioned religion.

 
At 11:30 PM, Blogger Reaganite said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 11:31 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey, why ya'll leaving da Jews out of this? So much talk here abou religion and yet it's all Christianity this and Christianity that. What about da Jews? Don't they have something to say about all this?

 
At 11:36 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

ask that guy wears a yalmukah in class. I think someone told me he was a Rabbi. I don't know his name but he's friends with Jed and Tom Hunter, ask them.

 
At 2:25 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

In response to the above comment that most of the founders were not believers in a Christianity, but instead simple deists, that's a huge error of analysis. Here are some more quotes:

“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses] Patrick Henry "Orator of the Revolution."

Thomas Jefferson:
“ The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”

“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."

John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”

Samuel Adams
“ He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all… Our forefathers opened the Bible to all.” [ "American Independence," August 1, 1776. Speech delivered at the State House in Philadelphia]

“ Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their endeavors to renovate the age by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity… and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system.” [October 4, 1790]

Charles Carroll - signer of the Declaration of Independence
" Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments." [Source: To James McHenry on November 4, 1800.]

 

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